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Traveller-digest     Thursday, December 2 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1426<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Starport/5FW question...<BR>
Re: Peoples of the Book (AKA Biblical Religions)<BR>
Re: Starport/5FW question...<BR>
Re: Different Technologies<BR>
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Government bad, anarchy good<BR>
Re Bribery<BR>
[none]<BR>
[none]<BR>
Re: GS3/3 Solar Sails (was: Goryo-class Medium Fighter (GTL9) - corrected)<BR>
Re: Bifrost-class Solar Shuttle (GTL9)<BR>
Re: Police Career<BR>
Re: Deadfall Ordnance<BR>
Re: Bribery Skill<BR>
Re: Different Technologies<BR>
Re: Inevitability of government failure or revolutions, etc. [longish]<BR>
RE: LEO's<BR>
RE: LEO's<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 00:11:04 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Starport/5FW question...<BR>
<BR>
- --- Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@teal.ima.umn.edu> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > I'm working on something for SJG, and could use some help with a<BR>
> little <BR>
> > research...<BR>
> ><BR>
> > ..does anyone know of any Class A or B (V or IV to GURPS players)<BR>
> starport <BR>
> > in the Spinward Marche that were downgraded to C or D due to battle<BR>
> damage<BR>
> > in the Fifth Frontier War?<BR>
> <BR>
> Not officially.  Best bet might be Jewell; the UWP codes aren't<BR>
> changed, but<BR>
> that doesn't mean they're correct.  Jewell is also big enough to have<BR>
> more<BR>
> than one starport, so maybe only one of the ports in a landing zone<BR>
> suffered<BR>
> that much damage. <BR>
> <BR>
> Arguments in favor: we know Jewell suffered a prolonged siege by<BR>
> Zhodani<BR>
> forces; I'd have to look at SMC, but I recall at least two episodes<BR>
> of<BR>
> landing operations.  The first was pushed off, and the second on<BR>
> another<BR>
> continent was apparently more successful, if I remember right.  In<BR>
> any<BR>
> case, Jewell never fell completely.<BR>
<BR>
Another posibility is Narval. It was colonized by Imperials before<BR>
and was captured by the Zho. The Imperials thought it was too <BR>
important to be left to the Zho and using a deep thrust assualt, <BR>
destroyed the starport and most of the cities with mass drivers.<BR>
The attack was so severe it blew away most of the atmosphere.<BR>
The Zho saved the people they could and have rebuilt the starport. <BR>
<BR>
I don't know what it was before so it may qualify.<BR>
<BR>
On another subject, would that kind of an attack against these <BR>
people be a violation of the Laws of War? Devistating the civilian <BR>
population intentionaly, using weapons of mass (forgive the pun) <BR>
destruction. Include the fact they were subjugated Imperial <BR>
citizens. For that kind of hidious crime, IMTU, some navy <BR>
officers would have stood trial for crimes against sphiontry. (sp?)<BR>
There would have been a HUGE stink. Just because the enemy have<BR>
captured your people is no excuse to kill them. The starport and <BR>
any military vessels were fair game but they crossed the line when <BR>
they tried to kill all the civilians.<BR>
<BR>
Opinions?<BR>
<BR>
Terry<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 19:48:43 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Peoples of the Book (AKA Biblical Religions)<BR>
<BR>
>Without question the bible is a significant document. Three of the worlds<BR>
>most pervasive religions are based upon (parts) of it. It's contents and the<BR>
>interpretations of its contents have dominated first western, and then world<BR>
>history for at least 1800 years.<BR>
<BR>
Not to mention the creation story used by the Judaic, Mohamedan, and<BR>
Christian faiths is shared with several other persian religions. One other<BR>
key thing about these religiouns that is shared is Persistance...<BR>
Zorastrianism (*the oldest of the lot) still has over a million<BR>
followers... One of whom was known world wide... A gent named Farouk....<BR>
better known by his "Brittish" name... Freddy Mercury.<BR>
<BR>
The peoples of the book are a very diverse set, and I wonder about their<BR>
survival into the 3I.<BR>
<BR>
Zorastrianism is already some 5000 years old, as is Judaism. Christianity,<BR>
as a whole, is a derivative of Judaism. Mohamedan religion (Commonly called<BR>
Islam), is some 14-16 centuries old... All these religions emphasise<BR>
ritual, belief, and (except for certain sects) educated self-interpretation<BR>
with the assistance of the leadership.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav: Gabreelism, from Traveller Chronicle, is one very plausible<BR>
outgrowth of the phenomena of the "Peoples of the Book". Anybody have any<BR>
others?<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis mailto:wilh@alaska.com<BR>
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 00:14:34 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Starport/5FW question...<BR>
<BR>
- --- Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> --- Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@teal.ima.umn.edu> wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > > I'm working on something for SJG, and could use some help with a<BR>
> > little <BR>
> > > research...<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > ..does anyone know of any Class A or B (V or IV to GURPS players)<BR>
> > starport <BR>
> > > in the Spinward Marche that were downgraded to C or D due to<BR>
> battle<BR>
> > damage<BR>
> > > in the Fifth Frontier War?<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
> Another posibility is Narval. It was colonized by Imperials before<BR>
> and was captured by the Zho. The Imperials thought it was too <BR>
> important to be left to the Zho and using a deep thrust assualt, <BR>
> destroyed the starport and most of the cities with mass drivers.<BR>
> The attack was so severe it blew away most of the atmosphere.<BR>
> The Zho saved the people they could and have rebuilt the starport. <BR>
> <BR>
> I don't know what it was before so it may qualify.<BR>
<BR>
I didn't read closely enough. This was in the third frontier war.<BR>
Still the question below is valid.<BR>
 <BR>
> On another subject, would that kind of an attack against these <BR>
> people be a violation of the Laws of War? Devistating the civilian <BR>
> population intentionaly, using weapons of mass (forgive the pun) <BR>
> destruction. Include the fact they were subjugated Imperial <BR>
> citizens. For that kind of hidious crime, IMTU, some navy <BR>
> officers would have stood trial for crimes against sphiontry. (sp?)<BR>
> There would have been a HUGE stink. Just because the enemy have<BR>
> captured your people is no excuse to kill them. The starport and <BR>
> any military vessels were fair game but they crossed the line when <BR>
> they tried to kill all the civilians.<BR>
> <BR>
> Opinions?<BR>
> <BR>
> Terry<BR>
<BR>
Terry<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 02:21:18 -0600<BR>
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Different Technologies<BR>
<BR>
John R. Snead wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>The case for Thrusters is even better.  Fission drives, solar sails,<BR>
and<BR>
>most other solutions are honestly fairly pitiful for getting around a<BR>
>solar system in anything resembling a reasonable amount of time.<BR>
><BR>
>Fusion rockets & Heplar both work OK, but are incredibly inferior to<BR>
>Thrusters, since they require considerable amounts of fuel or reaction<BR>
>mass and thrusters do not.  Thrusters are the only way you can do 1 G<BR>
>continuous thrust boosts from one planet to another.  With that sort of<BR>
<BR>
>advantage everyone who came across such things would drop their<BR>
existing<BR>
>technologies and adopt thrusters as soon as they could buy or duplicate<BR>
<BR>
>them.<BR>
><BR>
>Some technologies are simply better.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU the following space propulsion methods are used:<BR>
<BR>
1) CG:   good out to 10 planetary diameters, extensive use on small<BR>
craft.<BR>
<BR>
2) Thrusters:  good out to 1000 solar diameters, used by everyone who<BR>
gets outside the 10 planetary limit.<BR>
<BR>
3) HEPLAR/Fussion Rockets:  secondary drive for anyone who gets outside<BR>
1000 solar diameter limit (military and scouts mainly)<BR>
<BR>
4) Solar Sails:  Idle rich (solar sail races)<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 16:55:05 +1100 <BR>
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au><BR>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Government bad, anarchy good<BR>
<BR>
Um, yeah, okay. I thought dat it was just a game, eh...<BR>
=====<BR>
KA Schuant<BR>
<BR>
A game? JUST A GAME!?!?!!?!?!<BR>
<BR>
<slap, slap> I'll see you at dawn sir. Your choice of weapons.<BR>
<BR>
Michael <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 23:50:37 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Bribery<BR>
<BR>
>In a recent discussion the subject of Bribery came up. I don't use it as a<BR>
>skill<BR>
>in MTU. How difficult is it to bribe someone anyway?!?  Is it like electronics<BR>
>or medical, or even gun combat? How much training or experience is actually<BR>
>involved to advance to a higher level. I accept it as a task, but not as a<BR>
>separate skill!  I assume that anyone with Streetwise would be successful at<BR>
>bribery. Any opinions out there?<BR>
<BR>
The distinction is that bribery, typically, isn't the streetpunk paying off<BR>
a cop. It's more often the punk's supplier offering the cops stuff in ways<BR>
that are<BR>
A) Not easily traced/tracked<BR>
B) discreet<BR>
c) not likely to be connected directly with the actions desired.<BR>
<BR>
I've done a little bribery myself... of Maitre'd's at posh restaurants.<BR>
There are distinct skills for doing this. Like placing your hand on the<BR>
podium, with just a corner of the bill showing, watching to see if he<BR>
notices, asking if there is a table available, and seeing if he's looking<BR>
in the book or your hand, and then leaving the bill so that only he sees<BR>
it. Not quite sleight of hand, but not far from it, plus the nuances of<BR>
seeing whether he smiles or not at seing the bill. It's in the details of<BR>
doing it. The streetwise may tell you which cop will take a bribe, but no<BR>
cop is going to take an obvious bribe on a righteous bust unless severly<BR>
compromised already. An obvious approach to bribery often gets rebuffed.<BR>
Also, it's like knowing that Claude, the Maitre'd at the crows nest for<BR>
many years, knows you know how to behave, and that the tip is for<BR>
overlooking your underage status and sending the wine-steward over... he<BR>
knew me, and knew my folks wouldn't raise a stink for dinner at a 4-star<BR>
restaurant to be eaten with a light wine. And, that for a C-not, he'll let<BR>
you in without reservations. And knowing that you mustn't let the other<BR>
staff see, otherwise he only gets 10% of it. Likewise, Michelle, from the<BR>
Corsair, will seat you for $50, but will put you with the waiters in<BR>
training, won't even think of sending you a wine steward for less than $500<BR>
(He's been popped on serving to minors before), and that you must pass him<BR>
the bribe to his palm, rather than letting him close the book on it, and do<BR>
so as you thank him for the seat. Then again, there are 3 four-star<BR>
restaurants in town... and Marx Brothers, the last of them, had a much<BR>
higher standard, even if they had a FAR less restrictive dress code... The<BR>
one time I offered the bribe to get a seat, I was offered a "Tour of the<BR>
staff lounge", whereupon I was threatened with a police call in exchange<BR>
for my $100 bill. I later heard rumors that that Maitre'd was an ex-cop...<BR>
<BR>
Likewise, birbery of government clerks is a matter of knowing how to offer<BR>
them what they want without costing them their job.<BR>
<BR>
In all cases, it requires a set of skills at reading both their<BR>
receptiveness, as well as knowing how to deliver without compromising the<BR>
safety or job of the bribee. Streetwise will tell you who's corrupt...<BR>
bribery tells you how to get them on YOUR payroll. And how to keep them<BR>
where you want them while paying them.<BR>
<BR>
In societies where graft is common, yeah, substitute either carousing or<BR>
streetwise... it's just part of normal life. But where it's prohibited (or<BR>
at least severely frowned upon) it requires a certain set of skills to pull<BR>
off. Which, unless you have more interpersonal skill IYTU than I have IMTU,<BR>
seem to best be summed up under bribery.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis mailto:wilh@alaska.com<BR>
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 00:27:59 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: [none]<BR>
<BR>
>>Is it possible for list-members from other countries to give a basic run<BR>
>>down of their police agencies for people to use in their TU's ?<BR>
><BR>
>Wow. Metro Detroit with a zillion different police departments...<BR>
<BR>
The Police Officer's Funeral was attended by representatives of 46<BR>
different officers, according to the press release to the local news.<BR>
Likewise, some other areas have similar levels of overlap, all with<BR>
jurisdiction for all crimes.<BR>
<BR>
I was lucky enough to be able to read a few of the cars, and then asked a<BR>
few locals about it. And saw a response near the house where I was staying.<BR>
(Anyone in the detroit metro area, it was on 9th street in wyandotte).<BR>
<BR>
While LA is often claimed to be 100 villages in search of a City, Detroit<BR>
really is 20+ cities who just happen to fill their turf right to the<BR>
borders, with a muni gov't thrown on top to FORCE cooperation.<BR>
<BR>
Likewise, Portland, Oregon, really is six cities under a municipal<BR>
government. (And crossing at least two counties). I don't recall seing<BR>
local police there (Portland Metro, plus two sherrifs departments, those<BR>
I've seen). Detroit is an extreme of the US system.<BR>
<BR>
The city where I live (and grew up) is much the opposite. Alaska has no<BR>
counties, only Burroughs and Municipalities. In Alaska, a Municipality is<BR>
when a City government merges with a Burrough government. Burroughs are<BR>
physically HUGE. Burroughs are forbidden tohave police forces of their own,<BR>
but municipalities may. Cities may have PD's, too. And we have the State<BR>
Department of Public Safety, with 4 divisions (State Troopers, Airport<BR>
Police, University Police, and Fish and Wildlife... the first and last are<BR>
one administatively and training wise, the middle two have separate<BR>
training and hiring, but answer to the state director of public safety).<BR>
When Achorage was young, it had 3 neighboring "Incorporated Cities", plus<BR>
housed the "Greater Anchorage Area Bourough" (GAAB) government, separate<BR>
from the city government. As anchorage expanded, it surrounded, then<BR>
absorbed the Cities of Mountain View, Spenard, and Jewel Lake. The<BR>
Incorporated Townships of Eagle River, Chugiak, Peter's Creek, Girdwood,<BR>
Indian, and Turnagain were too far away for this to happen. In 1976,  the<BR>
city and the GAAB sought a municipality. All the above now fall under the<BR>
jurisdiction of the Municipality, and in theory, could have APD services.<BR>
Girdwood then became a city, but doesn't have a mayor since that would<BR>
confuse the titles with the Mayor of Anchorage, who is THE mayor for all<BR>
the residents of the former GAAB. Several townships are not covered by APD<BR>
even though they are surrounded by areas that do. Girdwood doesn't since<BR>
there's 60 miles of nothing between the south end and girdwood. Eagle Rive<BR>
does, as do Chugiak, Peter's Creek, and Eklutna (Those run North from<BR>
anchorage, in the order presented) even they are streched along the glenn<BR>
highway between 10 and 25 miles north of the North-east corner of Anchorage<BR>
proper. Mind you, the APD doesn't police the highway itself, even though<BR>
that's the only way to get between anchorage and the "Valley" (Eagle River<BR>
Valley, properly). State troopers have no "Routine" authority inside city<BR>
limits... but they may pursue, investigate, or arrest anywhere.... BTW,<BR>
Girdwood, 60 miles away, has Anchorage Fire Department Service, while<BR>
Chugiak , 15 miles away,doesn't have AFD, and isonly five miles past Eagle<BR>
river which does have AFD services...<BR>
<BR>
Which brings me to another Ob:Trav diversion....<BR>
IYTU, how common is it to integrate the various emergency services?<BR>
(Police, Fire, Emergency Medical, Public Health)<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis mailto:wilh@alaska.com<BR>
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 00:29:27 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: [none]<BR>
<BR>
>Are there canonical or widely-published rules for starship decrepitude<BR>
>in Traveller?<BR>
><BR>
>I was just going to plug mine again:<BR>
><BR>
>http://www.estarcion.com/kaleja/77quirks.html<BR>
<BR>
There are some in TNE. I adapted the to MT... see my site below to find them.<BR>
HTTP://home.gci.net/~aramis/<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis mailto:wilh@alaska.com<BR>
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 23:49:44 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: GS3/3 Solar Sails (was: Goryo-class Medium Fighter (GTL9) - corrected)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>Robert Prior writes:<BR>
>><BR>
>>> A light sail module takes up one space. At GTL8 it has an area of 15 sq<BR>
>>> miles, at GTL9+ an area of 240 sq miles.  It provides 10 tons of thrust at<BR>
>>> GTL8, 160 tons of thrust at GTL9+.  Mass is 50 tons at all tech levels.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Note that in GVE2 the thrust is 5.26 lb/square mile (9e-6 newtons/square<BR>
>>meter) or 0.63 tons for the above sail.  Assuming a solar flux of 1,400<BR>
>>watts/square meter the actual value is 9.3e-6 newtons/m^2, which is<BR>
>>reasonable enough.<BR>
><BR>
> True enough. I was using the GURPS Space version originally.  It _does_<BR>
> need correcting.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, there's another problem (potential). You need to sanity check<BR>
the figures for the sail mass.<BR>
<BR>
I just checked and plastics seem to be around 1.0 density. But you need<BR>
to aluminize the plastic. So let's go for a density of 2.0 and a<BR>
thickness of one atom or so (Al ions seems to have a radius of .39 to<BR>
.54 angstroms, so we'll go for 1 angstrom).<BR>
<BR>
1 angstrom = 1e-10 m.<BR>
<BR>
So, 1 square mile = 2.59e6 m^2. Which means that 1 sqare mile of 1<BR>
Angrstrom thick sail has a volume of 2.59e-4 m^3. with a specific<BR>
gravity of 2, that gives a mass of about 518 grams per square mile (Yow!).<BR>
Or 18.3 pounds, or 9.134e-3 tons/mi^2. <BR>
<BR>
Note that I seriously doubt this would work as a sail, even if<BR>
assembled using nanotech. And that I'm ignoring the shroud lines and<BR>
any required "tensile fibers" (required to keep the sail from ripping<BR>
apart from the tensile stresses).<BR>
<BR>
>>A 1-space (50T) sail is 250 square miles with GVE2.  Thrust is 0.66T.<BR>
>>Maximum area is 360,000 square miles (1440 modules).<BR>
<BR>
And mass has to be above (way above!) 2.28 tons per space (250 mi^2).<BR>
<BR>
>>A 1-space (490T) TL-8 sail is 15 square miles with a thrust of 0.038T (it<BR>
>>has marginally lower thrust); maximum area is 3,600 square miles (240<BR>
>>modules)<BR>
<BR>
And it must mass above .137 tons per space (15 mi^2).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 00:12:11 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Bifrost-class Solar Shuttle (GTL9)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>That's the point, it's *not* the solar energy, it's the solar *wind*.<BR>
><BR>
> "The solar wind plays no part in solar sailing; it's important to<BR>
> understand this from the start. The solar sail operates on sunlight<BR>
> pressure - the pressure produced by light when it "bounces off" a mirror.<BR>
> This force is 1,000 to 10,000 times greater than that of the solar wind,<BR>
> and while there are many analogs between terrestrial sailing and solar<BR>
> sailing, we must disabuse ourselves of the idea that the solar wind can<BR>
> propel us through space."<BR>
><BR>
> p.17 "Starsailing: Solar Sails and Interstellar Travel" by Louis Freidman<BR>
<BR>
Try telling that to the magsail folks! :-)<BR>
<BR>
>>Right. now stop and consider this. 2.2e14 m^2 for sail area. If that<BR>
>>sail weighs a *miilgram* per square meter, that makes it mass 2.2e11<BR>
>>kg. or 2.2e8 *tons*. That sail with a 145.1 tonne thrust masses 220<BR>
>>*million* tonnes. 145.1/220e6 = 660 one-billionths of a g accel.<BR>
>><BR>
>>> According to GS/3, the sail is 240 square miles per space. I see that I<BR>
>>> forgot to multiply the thrust by 0.5 (for the half space) but GS/3 lists<BR>
>>> the thrust as 160 tons/space.<BR>
>><BR>
>>> I think we've found an errata in GS/3.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Major league. Alo note my figures above regarding the *mass* of the<BR>
>>sail as it relates to area.<BR>
><BR>
> True, I was ignoring that. I suppose that as a lower limit on mass we could<BR>
> assume a sheet a single molecule thick, and see what that gives for mass.<BR>
> If it's reasonable, then I think we could handwave some form of "molecular<BR>
> bonding" to get the material at upper-end tech levels. Of course, the first<BR>
> cloud of thin gas and your sail would be ruined...  If even a single<BR>
> molecule sheet is too massive, then we've established a definative<BR>
> 'impossible'.<BR>
<BR>
I did that in another message. Assuming essentially a couple of atoms<BR>
of aluminum as the thickness (since you *have* to coat the sail or it<BR>
won't reflect) and a density of 2.0 (figure the carbon and hydrogen of<BR>
the plastic account for part of the thickness). I got a figure of<BR>
9.14e-3 tons/mi^2 as our "minimum". <BR>
<BR>
> (As a matter of principle, I dislike the word "impossible" when applied to<BR>
> engineering.)<BR>
<BR>
Ok, let me know when you've figured out how to stuff something into a<BR>
box smaller than it is. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 00:18:37 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Police Career<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Wed, 1 Dec 1999 05:01:33 -0500 (EST), shadow@krypton.rain.com<BR>
> (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>>>>     Bomb Squad (Bomb & Explosive Ordnance Disposal)<BR>
><BR>
>>> Munitions and Special Package Division.  Also responsible for<BR>
>>> non-explosive devices of mass effect (e.g., poison gas emitters).<BR>
><BR>
>>And nukes, as terrorists *will* be able to get them, given how "common"<BR>
>>the missile rules require them to be. :-)<BR>
><BR>
> Yes - but I sort of figured that a 'nuke' would be explosive, and<BR>
> so well within the definition of 'bomb' or 'explosive ordinance'.<BR>
><BR>
>>Also, here's a lovely thought. Just imagaine what a bunch of terrorists<BR>
>>with a nuclear damper could do. Set it to speed up decay and aim it at<BR>
>>those nice granite government buildings. <BR>
><BR>
> So, when are you going to write the adventure?<BR>
<BR>
Needs too much rule specific stuff. I don't have any rules more modern<BR>
than MT. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 23:17:57 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Deadfall Ordnance<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
>> .001 kiloton?  why not just drop a WWII bomb?<BR>
><BR>
> Because it would burn up in reentry?<BR>
<BR>
Not if it is designed properly. Missile warheads reenter *fast* and<BR>
survive. <BR>
<BR>
I'd point out to the powers that be that the "slow down for re-entry"<BR>
only applies to anything that wants to *land*. Kinetic kill weapons,<BR>
and even "normal nukes"  *won't* bother slowing down, it makes it too<BR>
easy to nail them before they impact their targets.<BR>
<BR>
>> This is certainly not in the planet busting category although it might<BR>
>> stop an armored fighting vehicle.<BR>
><BR>
> I would hope so!  35,000 (2) points of damage is nothing to sneeze <BR>
> at.  That's enough to take out a 20,000 dTon ship with 30,000 points <BR>
> of DR.<BR>
<BR>
There's a simple "rule of thumb" used in estimating damage from meteor<BR>
strikes and the like. <BR>
<BR>
At 3 km/sec, an impacting object releases energy equal to its mass in<BR>
TNT (ie a 100 kilo projectile impacting at 3 km/sec will make the same<BR>
sized hole as a 100 kilos of TNT). <BR>
<BR>
The energy goes up as the *square* of the velocity. Thus, a 12 km/sec<BR>
projectile will have *16* times the blast effects. So a 100 kilo<BR>
projectile is equivalent to 1.6 tonnes of TNT. <BR>
<BR>
I picked 12 km/sec for a reason. First, it's just a bit above escape<BR>
velocity (11 km/sec) and it is exactly 4 times the 3 km/sec figure<BR>
above, making calculations easy.<BR>
<BR>
Why is being close to escape velocity important? Because not only is<BR>
escape velocity the speed to need to "escape to infinity (ie never<BR>
fall back), it's also the speed an object free-falling from infinity<BR>
would have at impact (if there was no atmosphere). <BR>
<BR>
The Earth's orbital velocity around 20-30 km/sec. At 30 km/sec our 100<BR>
kg projectile will release 100 times the energy it would at 3 km/sec.<BR>
Or about the energy of 10 *tons* of TNT.<BR>
<BR>
Now consider that a 100 kg projectile like this, could simply be a<BR>
chunk of properly shaped stell with a ceramic or graphite coating to<BR>
ensure it survives to hit the ground. And it'll have a volume of 1/80th<BR>
of a cubic meter. Or a bit over 1/80th of a cubic yard. <BR>
<BR>
So let's consider one that's an entire cubic meter in volume. It'll<BR>
mass 7.8 tonnes. And again the impact energy will be *100* times that.<BR>
So we are talking about the equivalent of 780 tonnes of TNT. That's<BR>
over 3/4s of a kiloton!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 03:08:44 -0800<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Bribery Skill<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 12/1/99 2:38 PM, ingram@airmail.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In a recent discussion the subject of Bribery came up. I don't use it as a<BR>
> skill<BR>
> in MTU. How difficult is it to bribe someone anyway?!?  Is it like electronics<BR>
> or medical, or even gun combat? How much training or experience is actually<BR>
> involved to advance to a higher level. I accept it as a task, but not as a<BR>
> separate skill!  I assume that anyone with Streetwise would be successful at<BR>
> bribery. Any opinions out there?<BR>
> <BR>
> Alex<BR>
> <BR>
I hadn't thought of the link between streetwise and bribery, but I would<BR>
still keep them seperate, allowing streetwise to default at a small penalty<BR>
to bribery. I agree it is not a complex skill, but I usually use some<BR>
gradiation in skill types, and would place bribery at the lowest, cheapest<BR>
rank. Consider also that it can be used not just to actually bribe someone,<BR>
but for determining if a bribe attempt is likely to be risky or readily<BR>
accepted, what type of incentive would be best (cash, contraband, favor,<BR>
etc.), to communicate to another that you are bribable, spot a bribe taking<BR>
place, etc.<BR>
<BR>
As far as medical, I have long ago given up generalizing such a complex<BR>
field into a single skill. Anatomy, diagnostics, surgery, pharmaceuticals,<BR>
it's  a huge ball of interlocking disciplines. Perhaps R. O'Conner can give<BR>
some pointers to help flesh out that area of game mechanics. Monitoring the<BR>
physical condition of characters during combat, hostile environments,<BR>
disease, etc. has always been a weak link in many systems. Most, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 11:13:14 +0000<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Different Technologies<BR>
<BR>
"Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote:<BR>
<snip><BR>
>...A world where most people are more interested in whether or<BR>
>not a car has a CD player, not how many miles it gets to the gallon.<BR>
><BR>
>That would be kilometers to the liter to the metric folks on the list,<BR>
>right?<BR>
<BR>
Nope, litres per 100 kilometers so small number are better.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 04:55:39 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Inevitability of government failure or revolutions, etc. [longish]<BR>
<BR>
- --- Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> --- tim burt <canada147@hotmail.com> wrote:<BR>
> > As a Marxist and Democratic Socialist, I often find<BR>
> > it amusing to see how <BR>
<BR>
<HUGE snip><BR>
<BR>
> > <BR>
> <BR>
> Um, yeah, okay. I thought dat it was just a game, eh...<BR>
> <BR>
> =====<BR>
> KA Schuant<BR>
> member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty<BR>
> Int, Carlton Soccer Club<BR>
> Melbourne<BR>
> Australia<BR>
 <BR>
Please, please, please do NOT quote huge messages verbatim. Expecially <BR>
for a one line response.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
Terry<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 12:55:59 +0000<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: RE: LEO's<BR>
<BR>
"Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>In the UK we have a number  of  county  and  metropolitan  police<BR>
>forces who all cooperate with each other fairly well, and who use<BR>
>a central crime database  called  the  Police  National  Computer<BR>
>(enquiries to which are called PNC checks).  Within these  police<BR>
>forces there are various specialised units  ...  Special  Branch,<BR>
>T-Branch (anti-terrorist), the  Vice  Squad,  the  infamous  West<BR>
>Midlands Serious Crime  squad,  the  Serious  Fraud  Office,  the<BR>
>Complaints Investigation Branch, Criminal Investigation Division,<BR>
>the Transport Police (for railways), etc.<BR>
<BR>
I don't know if it changed when the government sold off the railways<BR>
but the fact that the British Railways Transport Police had jurisdiction<BR>
over railway property meant that members of other police forces couldn't<BR>
arrest people on BR property.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, and the London Underground has its own separate force as well.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:12:07 -0000 <BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: LEO's<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
> Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>
> > ehenry wrote:<BR>
> > > I plead ignorance.  Is "Scotland Yard" still around and how does<BR>
> > > it fit in<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Scotland Yard *was* the address of the original headquarters  for<BR>
> > the London Metropolitan Police (the "Met").<BR>
<snip><BR>
> That's odd...I thought 'Scotland Yard' was the HQ of your<BR>
> equivalent of the FBI, a national police force...Whatever<BR>
> they're called...I've only heard them referred to as 'Scotland<BR>
> Yard'.<BR>
><BR>
> Of course, my experience comes from watching things like<BR>
> 'Cracker' and suchlike on PBS and A&E, and a pile of mysteries...<BR>
<BR>
As I said Scotland Yard (or New Scotland Yard) is the HQ  of  the<BR>
Met (London police) ... but they have dozens of individual police<BR>
stations across the capitol all reporting back to Scotland Yard.<BR>
<BR>
There is no UK FBI equivalent although MI5 is  hoping  to  become<BR>
one (time will tell).<BR>
<BR>
IIRC "Cracker" was set in London (as was Sherlock  Holmes'  home,<BR>
and "The Bill") and given the  size  of  London  I  can  see  how<BR>
references to Scotland Yard (without references to  other  police<BR>
HQs) may be confusing.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1426<BR>
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